Greg de Moore is an Associate Professor of Psychiatry based at Sydney’s Westmead Hospital. Born in Melbourne of parents who migrated to Australia from Sri Lanka, Greg has lived in Sydney for over 30 years.
Greg works as a clinician, teacher and researcher in the fields of deliberate self-harm, mental health in sport, medical education, and the history of medicine. Beyond medicine, he is on the board of Minds Count, which advocates for mental health reform in the legal profession.
He has combined his medical interests with Australian history to write several books including Tom Wills: First wild man of Australian sport, the story of a man who despite great mental health struggles created our first international cricket team – an Aboriginal team; A National Game, the history of Australian football; and his most recent book, Finding Sanity: John Cade, lithium and the taming of bipolar disorder, the story of Australia’s greatest mental health triumph.
You’re currently working as a Psychiatrist at Sydney’s Westmead Hospital. Can you tell us how long you’ve been in this role and a bit about your work?
I have worked at Westmead Hospital on and off for about 30 years, in a number of capacities. I’ve always been interested in the interplay between physical health and mental health so for many years I ran what’s called liaison psychiatry services at Westmead. I used to be in charge of patients who presented at the emergency room with a whole array of problems, such as suicide attempts, people who came in with depression, anxiety, psychosis, and those brought in by police. I was also in charge of the team who completed consultations on the medical and surgical wards, working with patients who had both physical and psychological problems in a hospital setting.
I’ve worked in other hospitals and overseas, including New York City for a year as a Psychiatrist which was a fascinating experience, and many other places. Since I came back from New York, my main area of interest has been in teaching and mentoring young doctors.
You’re also a Director of the Minds Count Foundation. How long have you been doing this role and what does the role entail?
About 5 years ago, at an event in Macquarie Street in Sydney, I was approached by a doctor who said he was on the board of a foundation called the Tristan Jepson Memorial Foundation. He was about to stand down and asked if I would consider being on that board which worked with magistrates, barristers, solicitors, private practitioners and people in the public law, to try and look at the issues of mental health and welfare amongst law students and practising lawyers and judges. This seemed like a wonderful opportunity to transplant some of the skills and knowledge I had developed working with doctors to another profession, so that’s how I got involved. A couple of years ago the name of the foundation changed to the Minds Count Foundation, but continues with the previous purpose of promoting mental health awareness in the legal profession. Minds Count is a platform for advocacy within the legal profession and hopes to bring about a greater understanding of mental disorders as it affects the legal profession and to assist where possible the coordination of mental health research in the legal profession to improve the welfare of its members.
Can you tell us about some of the creative or interesting initiatives the foundation is currently implementing or has implemented to promote constructive conversations about mental health in the legal profession?
Some years ago the foundation set up guidelines for welfare in the workplace – 13 broad guidelines that suggest to legal and other workplaces the kinds of things that we would like to see in a psychologically healthy workplace. This includes a sense of civility in the workplace and making sure that employees felt that there was meaning to their work. Leadership in all its guises is fundamental to making sure that these guidelines are of value. These guidelines are on our website. And we ask companies and individuals – interested in improving the status of the psychological profile of their place of work – to become signatories to the guidelines. We now have hundreds of signatories throughout Australia.
We’re about to undertake a number of free events this year where the hope is that signatories to the guidelines will talk about how they promulgate and promote issues of psychological wellbeing within their legal workplace in a supportive environment.
Last year, we instituted a Minds Count Prize for individuals and corporations. We wanted to recognise those individuals and companies who were doing more than just giving lip service to this issue. We feel it has been a great success to date, and there has been tremendous interested generated. We hope this will be an annual event.
Many of our board members travel around the country giving talks – large and small – to promote the foundation’s cause. I recently made a podcast for The Daily Wellness Show where I spoke about issues in and around the workplace, and last year I spoke about bullying in a legal context.
Our flagship event is an annual lecture where a prominent person on the field of mental health or the law presents on mental health issues.
We are looking to do more to improve psychological health amongst lawyers. One of the things we’re hoping to do this year is to invest in some further research. We helped coordinate some research about 10 years ago called ‘Courting the Blues’ which examined the prevalence of mental distress in the legal profession and attitudes to seeking help. We would like to revisit that work and are hoping to extend what was achieved a decade ago.
What is the best staff-focussed wellbeing approach in a workplace that you have seen or heard about?
One great idea I recently heard about was the establishment of a staff wellbeing committee set up in a big law firm. For a company to take time, and bother to set up a committee of interested members who took time to reach out to fellow employees was something that struck me as pretty impressive. One of the ideas at Minds Count that we like to promote is the idea of having a person or a few people in a workplace who are wellbeing champions.
What is one piece of advice you would give every workplace about managing mental health and promoting staff wellbeing in the workplace?
It’s hard to keep it to just one piece of advice. But I did ask around to see what other people thought, particularly in a legal context. This is what I came up with:
Creating a workplace where management openly talks about being there to support your mental health needs.
That a workplace invests in educating staff about mental health issues.
Never turn a blind eye to someone who seems to need help.
More broadly speaking, working in an environment where you get sensible feedback (and I don’t mean email feedback, but human-to-human feedback) is important, and where the person you work for, your immediate boss, inculcates a sense of meaning in your working environment and has an understanding of what you’re trying to work towards and encourages that. These are important in improving the workplace environment and thereby hopefully the mental health of lawyers.
What are some of the key mental health issues within the legal profession that you have observed as a clinician?
In the legal profession, issues can arise in the context of pressure around balancing work, finances and home life or changes to personal circumstances. What is often referred to as ‘burnout’ – that sense of chronic disgruntlement and irritability, with each day seeming as grey as the day before – is a common presenting problem. Also, for some, the sense of discomfort working in an environment that seems ruthlessly focused on money making rather than people. The attrition rates of lawyers or those who study law but then never go on to practice is considerable. I’ve observed issues a range of clinical issues as a psychiatrist - such as eating disorders and anxiety, particularly in women; depression and marital unhappiness. Women, as in almost all walks of life, are more amenable to seeking help than men.
What factors might make it difficult for a lawyer to seek psychological help?
It may be that they don’t think they need to seek help, that they can manage alone. And sometimes that might be true. It might be that there’s no immediate assistance available. But it often comes down to a fear of loss of confidentiality, the loss of face, or ‘am I admitting to the world that there’s something not right with me?’ The great fear is that a colleague may find out, and the terror that somehow this will destroy one’s chance of climbing the pole of seniority in a company. This, in my experience, is the crushing inhibition to lawyers seeking assistance. When I give a talk to a legal group, it’s interesting how often people will come to me afterward and whisper into my ear that they’ve been on antidepressants, or seen a psychiatrist. The truth is that many people around you, at your place of work, are probably seeing psychiatrists and psychologists. And many of those being treated are in senior positions. People can and do lead successful lives, despite anxiety, depression, or other ailments that take them into mental health care.
What are some techniques you use to “switch off” and relax?
My experience of professional people is they often know what they’re supposed to do, but rarely do they ever do it. People get caught up in their daily work and the daily grind. I think physically getting away from your place of work is vital and for me, getting away from the city is important. If you can get away and be somewhere near water or nature, for me that’s important. Exercise is critical. And if you can’t do that, try to turn the lights down low and just sit quietly for ten minutes. These are some of things I do. I’m not saying that they are perfect but I’ve found them very helpful.